User talk:PigeonGuru

Jump to navigation Jump to search

About this board

Not editable

Midgame and Colony building guides

8
Siggboy (talkcontribs)

Thank you for moving some of my edits to the Colony Building guide. I was planning to edit that article as well.

I'm aware that some of my additions to the midgame guide were already out of scope, but I did not want to start editing a second article in parallel.

If you keep moving things, please be aware that there might be more, but I will help with this in the future.

The lines between what goes into a "mid-game" guide and not are somewhat blurry. What is "mid-game", anyway?

PigeonGuru (talkcontribs)

I'd say midgame is after you have settled down, become fully self-sufficient, and built basic facilities. The objective now would be to expand your base, complete research and upgrade your equipment as opposed to being focused on survival.

Siggboy (talkcontribs)

Yes, I know, it's what I wrote into the introduction myself :). My question was more rhetorical than not, because the term is so blurry and not even a meta-game related word.

What's "mid game" on an icesheet, for example? When you have your first paste dispenser? Hydroponics room?

It is very easy to become self-sufficient with basic facilities in a strict sense of the word. However, in many people's minds that would still be very "early game". So it's definitely not the definition of the term.

I don't mind using the term for a guide, because it's intuitive to most people what it means. All I'm saying is that it does not make much sense to draw boundary lines around the word and apply it pedantically.

The changes you've made were good though, I will put more thought into it and reorganize things further. Thanks for the help!

Pangaea (talkcontribs)

If I may be a little pedantic :P : Think it might be better to drop intermediate and advanced, and lowercase the titles (like in the heading of this topic), so it's easier to link to them in-text in other articles without it looking weird with uppercase words. I'm not sure why German-type grammar enters the English usage so much.

On the first point, we don't have an advanced midgame guide or an intermediate (or basic) endgame guide, so it seems like butter on bacon, if that term translates well. As you say above, there isn't a clear dividing line between them, but given the sheer size of them I do think it makes sense so separate some of the overall content.

Personally I would prefer a good bit of this to go into separate articles on all these various features or things, but I kinda ran out of steam earlier on trying to implement some pretty big changes, when the extensions and underlying wiki technology kept throwing bugs and not acting like it was supposed to. That way we could have genuine guide content in the guides, and explanations of features etc in individual articles.

Thank you for the wonderful contributions Siggboy -- it's great to see lots of activity in here again :)

Siggboy (talkcontribs)

Yes, I agree on all points. More stuff needs to be extracted into separate articles. In fact, I've just done that by -- very pedantically -- editing /wiki/Comfort (so I won't have to write a short novel about that stat in the guide section).

There are many other areas where the wiki is a little, um, undermaintained at the moment. But I get the point of "running out of steam", it is very work intensive.

With regards to German-type grammar: as a German myself I can assure you it is not easy for us Germans to keep Germanisms out of our English, because the two languages are at the same time quite similar, and then not at all. If there's German-type grammar, it was probably written by a German... please forgive us (for this, and also for those Wars, LUL :).

Siggboy (talkcontribs)

Now here are the types of "guides" that make sense in my opinion:

  • Quickstart, Getting Started, Beginner's Guide, WTF Is Going On Guide -- something along those lines. It should explain why you need certain mods to make the game suck a lot less (it's true), and help get a complete newb up to speed with the basics. Guides like this exist for Dwarf Fortress.
  • Intermediate guide for somewhat experienced players. Should be interesting for folks like me, who have maybe launched a space ship on Phoebe/Medium, but mostly messed around and not watched any experienced players (on Twitch or Youtube)
  • Advanced tips and tricks section, like how to survive Naked/Merciless/Icesheet with killboxes and shenanigans.

The division into early, mid- and late-game doesn't really make that much sense. Of course there could be an article talking about the reactor powering event, or mid-game caravaning, but just covering "the mid-game" or "the end-game" is a little arbitrary, and most players will probably not know what to expect from such a guide. It is too abstract.

The rule for a good guide title (and scope) should be this: Most players should know, just by looking at the title, and maybe reading the first paragraph, if the guide is useful for them or not.

Pangaea (talkcontribs)

Oh, sorry, I didn't know you were German :) I merely meant the surprisingly common practice currently of uppercasing substantives to give them more importance. It looks a bit strange (imo), and I see it many places, not just on this wiki. It was a tangent, so sorry about that. Practically, however, it makes it easier to use links in articles if the page is titled with lowercase letters instead of Crashed Ship Part or whatever it may be (I've not checked that page, it's just an example).

I agree with what you write about the guides. I actually meant it the other way (skipping intermediate and advanced), but you make a better case. The separation between mid-game and end-game is abstract or not clear, so it's probably better to use intermediate and advanced instead. Kinda the same issue there with not-clear-dividing-lines, but still better than mid-game and such. What really is mid-game anyway? It will be different for all players, and whether they want to launch the ship, or just set up a basic base and then go again.

There was so much I wanted to do when I started out here, including a total redesign of the look and frontpage, but the work was too much, I got frustrated with all the issues, and then ran out of steam and sort of gave up. Maybe I'll try again later, but right now I'm enjoying playing the game instead :D

Siggboy (talkcontribs)

I don't know when I will run out of steam, but there must be some low hanging fruits here, that would immediately greatly improve the wiki.

A better front page is not a lot of work, it just needs some coordination between the key people involved in the effort.

My experience was that I could not find a lot of things by going through the front page, making it less than useful. In many cases it's just easier to use Google anyway. The front page must be very compact and to the point, and guide new people to the few most important locations.

I think the most common way that people use the wiki is to look up hard facts about thing X -- for example: How does beauty work? What does the empty "Ship" menu do? How long does plant Y need to grow?

That is the stuff that needs to be accessible, complete and correct in the wiki. The guides are important too, but guide information is usually found by simply Googling, and then going through Reddit/Twitch/Youtube/Wiki depending on what turns up.

I, for a fact, have not discovered information because the front page was so useful in guiding me there. I usually type a word into the search box, and hope that there is a page for it. For example, when I type "Beauty", I want to end up at the page that gives me all the relevant facts.

By the way, there is no need to apologize. I agree that capitalizing too many words is very bad style in English. Germans know that, however, I don't think capitalization happens because Germans are used to it. When we use WhatsApp or online chat we usually type in all lowercase anyway. It's just easier.

Dwindsor (talkcontribs)

Hi there!

Pangaea (talkcontribs)

Hi again. Sorry to keep bugging you both so much :D

Can you please move this file, so I can upload the one from the game files? Looks like it was the only direct conflict, but I can't do it myself. File:Moisture_pump.png. No need for a redirect since a new file will take its spot, but we must change the file link on the page the screenshot is used on.

PigeonGuru (talkcontribs)

Moved it, deleted the old link and changed the file link used. Should be fine now.

Pangaea (talkcontribs)

Thanks :) I uploaded the last image as well.

Pangaea (talkcontribs)

Could you please move this one as well? File:Triple_rocket_launcher.png. Can end it with "example" or "screenshot", something like that.

Edit: Oh crap, the file got uploaded anyway. Are you able to fix that error? Sorry. Must have ticked a box by mistake. Didn't mean to overwrite it.

PigeonGuru (talkcontribs)

Fixed it. Check for other similar images with confusing titles and tell me when you do, I'll see if I can move them all at once.

Pangaea (talkcontribs)

Thank you for fixing my mistake. If I see other images that would be ideal to move, I'll let you know.

Pangaea (talkcontribs)

Hi again, I have a question about the security/spam check questions when testing out new pages, even in my own userspace. Will these always persist? It's getting kind of grating having to answer rimworld, muffalo, boomrat etc every single time I hit preview. Will it always be like this?

PigeonGuru (talkcontribs)

I think so, these checks predate my participation in the wiki so there's not a lot I can do about them.

Funnily enough I only recall ever having to answer once or twice so I guess the questions are triggered by something, such as high activity.

Pangaea (talkcontribs)

Interesting. Maybe it's a user-rights thing then, because you are certainly active. I see it every time I create a new page, even if it's a category or something in my userspace, and when I make bigger changes. It doesn't always pop up, so maybe it's only if one changes a certain percentage of the content in a page or something. I got it for the recent addition to my Section 1 subpage draft for instance.

Template categorisation

4
Pangaea (talkcontribs)

Hi again. Sorry for the dry topic, but I recently added Template:Cols, and looked like I did things correct after copying stuff from other templates. The template itself appears to work, and on its bottom is the Category:General wiki templates, but it doesn't show up in the actual category. Which I find pretty weird. Do you know what the error is?

PigeonGuru (talkcontribs)

Nope, sorry. Try giving it some time to see if the category updates.

Pangaea (talkcontribs)

I put it directly in the template now, which made it show up. Weird.

PigeonGuru (talkcontribs)

Huh, we'll have to hope that doesn't break anything.

Pages/template for research technologies

9
Pangaea (talkcontribs)

(I'll write to you here instead of various talk pages and such. Sorry if it's not ideal, but this aspect of wiki-ing is always a bit hard -- effective communicating).

From what I can gather there aren't individual pages for each technology, is that correct? It also looks like you may have one main template for things, is that correct? I'm more used to having several templates, so each is easier to understand and use. So then I would think the main template would need to be adapted if we are to make pages for all technologies, with for instance information currently contained in the main research page. We'll also run into the typical naming issue, for instance both the tech and product called pemmican or passive cooler. Typically solved by adding a suffix, although it makes easy linking more bothersome. E.g. [[passive cooler (tech)|passive cooler]]. I'm thinking it might be useful though. Also worth to keep in mind that those big research tables are hard-coded currently, and may (or may not) be outdated.

Much the same deal with skills. Might be useful to have a page for each skill? But again, we'd need some type of template for it, or bake it into the current Thing template, if needed.

Let's say we have these pages: We could then have a small infobox for each tech/skill in the relevant overview skills and research articles.

PigeonGuru (talkcontribs)

I doubt that each research project has enough importance to have its own page; for simplicity I would rather add detailed research information to the existing pages.

As for your other suggestions, I haven't quite evaluated their usefulness, and to be fair many of them predate my participation of this wiki, so I am not very familiar with them. The infobox overhaul and expansions can be quite useful, so I'll let you experiment with them a little, to see how well it goes.

Pangaea (talkcontribs)

That's a fair point, although it might also apply to some other pages with limited information. For research projects, each page could for instance have info about what they unlock, and each production bench and such can be tied to it by requirements.

But I'm kinda just throwing out ideas here. Sadly I don't have as much time to dedicate to working on wikis as I did a few years ago, so wholesale changes to templates and writing lots of content is probably out of reach currently. Stuff quickly takes on a life of its own, and once you start looking a bit deeper, there could be a lot of stuff to do. Feature creep I suppose, heh, or wishes creep.

In general, though, I prefer to have one page for each "thing". Makes it easier to maintain and update. And maybe easier for the end user as well, as opposed to pretty big articles. They're great, don't get me wrong, but it may be a little daunting as well with a tiny scroll-bar :P

In any case, having more details about research and skills in infoboxes/templates could be useful, whether they have their own page or not. But it's always a bit daunting to try to get to grips with templates. Often it's like a huge tech tree with one template calling another, calling another, and it's easy to lose overview. I've had a look at some, and may look into adding stuff. Am not terribly familiar with SMW, though. Sort of got that plants query working, eventually, but the pictures are gone now :/

Pangaea (talkcontribs)

Hi again. If you have a good grasp of the template structure, how they are all connected, would you mind giving me a quick overview? I had a look at it yesterday, but it's a bit confusing with so many nested chains, and hard to get a good grasp on it. If I am to change something in what appears to be the main template (Template:Infobox_main), or add entirely new ones, what would I have to do? What would I need to make sure is done so that they work correctly, and play nice with the other chains?

As a sidenote: Have you heard about AutoWikiBrowser (AWB)? I found it really useful back in the days. If it's possible to use here. It was kind of a pain to set up on Gamepedia (especially as I'm on a Linux system, and it didn't play very well with it). It can get fairly complex, but it's possible to make similar changes on loads of pages in quick fashion, using RegEx. Naturally, for the same reason, it's important to check some pages manually first, so one doesn't make wrong changes on hundreds of pages :P

I've no idea how applicable it might be here, but one of the things I used it for was to update infoboxes on loads of pages; for instance adding a new line, or changing something else on all pages that called a certain template.

PigeonGuru (talkcontribs)

Still not so familiar on templates and stuff, so can't help you on them yet. When I edit them I mostly duplicate existing content and hope I don't break anything.

Also, for implementation of bots or other major stuff you might want to ask User:Zesty, he's the admin and has the ability to do large-scale changes to the wiki while my job is mostly to keep the wiki safe.

Pangaea (talkcontribs)

Thanks for the advice. I wrote him a message, as I also wonder about the wiki's license due to some copying ideas from elsewhere. Hopefully he pops in now and again.

I'm no expert myself and often have to learn by erring (and countless Show changes...), but it's been an interesting process -- although I've been out of it for a couple of years now. Trying to get to grips with CSS was a pain too, as it's ever so sensitive, and I spent countless hours with Firefox' code inspector, and bugging other mods and admins :shifty:

Pangaea (talkcontribs)

I've tried to contact him both here and on the forum, but to no avail. But from the steam profile he appears to be active. I don't have one, but do you? Would you be able to shoot him a message or something? This is actually a very important issue, and it should be resolved. But it must be done on the admin level. Some of the other pages I've edited/commented on lately should be looked at as well.

A lot could be done, but without the license thing cleared up I can't just copy from Wikipedia or Gamepedia or anywhere really, so we would have to start from scratch. Kinda losing the motivation here tbh. And on the template side, that still doesn't make much sense to me. And there are some errors somewhere, but it's hard to know where with all the nesting going on, and I don't dare to try to fix it.

Do you know if there has been discussions about the design of the frontpage? I'm thinking things could be done there as well, for starters some pictures would be nice :) But if it needs to be plain to keep down loads on the server or something, I would understand why it's so clean. Had a look through the history, and it has kinda been the same since 2013-14. I've copied over the contents of the mainpage and CSS so may play around, but the changes may need to be pretty massive, and I'm not skilled enough to do so without heavy trial and error, so it will take time. For instance, it shouldn't use tables, but divs instead.

Well, I'll fire up the game in the meantime and try a new colony. The last one basically burned to the ground :D

For further references, I've brought up these issues from different angles here:

PigeonGuru (talkcontribs)

I sent him a message on Discord, hope he'll come to look, no guarantees however.Update: Zesty will look at this after the weekend

Pangaea (talkcontribs)

Thank you for contacting him and updating about it. Good to know he'll be on it soon :)

About rhinocerus biomes

3
Pangaea (talkcontribs)

Hi. I just registered to make a comment/talk page, but can't due to bot protection, so am trying here as I saw you are a currently active moderator. In the rhinoceros article it is mentioned that they only appear in the arid shrubland biome. However, I'm playing a temperate forest map, and suddenly noticed that three rhinos were grazing in the area. No random even or anything like that. They were just suddenly there, like other animals that appear (and disappear) from the map. Therefore, is the info in that article outdated? Presumably the chance of this happening is low as I can't recall it happening before -- unless this was changed in the most recent 1.0 build. Wanted to check out with the community before making an edit to the actual page. Pangaea (talk) 00:24, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

PigeonGuru (talkcontribs)

Despite 1.0 being released a while back, I am sure that there are a lot of things that require updating, so I am not surprised that there's outdated info on the page.

I'll check the game files to check if the info is outdated, if yes then I'll get to updating it. In the meantime, feel free to contribute to the wiki wherever you think is appropriate.

Pangaea (talkcontribs)

Thanks. I see you updated the article with this info plus a host of other details. I'm currently semi-active on a few Gamepedia wikis, primarily Witcher 3, and used to be an admin on a different wiki over there a couple of years ago, so I'll try to contribute if I notice something that could be improved upon. The user interface here is a little different, but I'll hopefully get the hang on it, as long as I can write clean wiki-markup :P Pangaea (talk) 16:09, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Cabmoomoo (talkcontribs)

What's your opinion on making the infobox images of stackable things gifs animating between the stack states? I'd image this could only really be useful in the infobox, as other places wouldn't really benefit from it. I think a good example would be for Medicine, as it's used in a wide variety of situations, and only a few of which actually have anything to gain from making it a gif. I've uploaded an example under File:Medicine.gif (purposefully named very similarly to File:Medicine.png), but haven't made any other changes to the wiki.

PigeonGuru (talkcontribs)

Test to see if it works, maybe in the sandbox. I haven't seen it yet so can't really decide.

Vaindil (talkcontribs)

I saw you made the change to rename Glitterworld medicine to Ultratech medicine back in June. I'm playing 1.0 with no mods, and it's definitely called Glitterworld medicine. I'm brand new and don't want to make a change like this myself, just wanted to point it out. Thanks!

PigeonGuru (talkcontribs)

The name for Beta 19 was indeed Ultratech medicine so I'll assume this change got reverted in 1.0.

Anyway, I will change it as soon as I verify it. Thanks for the reminder.

Cabmoomoo (talkcontribs)

There are quite a large number of old and/or unused images lying around gather dust (and taking up space, but I have no idea if that's an issue). For images like that, which serve no purpose other than just being there, is slating them for deletion appropriate? I've done so with https://rimworldwiki.com/wiki/File:M-24SniperRifle.png but I would like to know if this is something that is A) allowed and B) going to actually get something accomplished. Thanks ahead of time.

PigeonGuru (talkcontribs)

I would flag them using the {{obsolete}} template, it shows that they are not used in the current versions and are hence, obsolete.

I wouldn't delete them unless the images are causing issues, however right now there seems to be a duplicate picture, and none are currently in use, so one has been deleted.

Edit: I've linked the image onto the Version history section of the sniper rifle. While it is now in use it would still classify as obsolete.

Cabmoomoo (talkcontribs)

The Orbital Bombardment Targeter, Orbital Power Beam Targeter, and Tornado Generator all use the same image. I have uploaded this image as OrbitalTargeter.png. I would fix the pages myself, but I've never had much luck with templates.

Cabmoomoo (talkcontribs)

On a slightly related topic, is there any way to search through templates available?

PigeonGuru (talkcontribs)

The regular search function has it, if you select 'Template'.