Talk:Drugs

Table value discrepancies

Creating a "drug effects" table (under that subheading). This allowed this page's extra-wide "addiction & tolerance" table to shift some columns to that table - win/win. However, in gathering info I found more than a couple contradictory values, and others that I don't trust 100%. Under the pre-existing table here, Go-juice has a listed duration of .7 days, but under the go-juice article it states that it lasts 1.875 days. (Am going with lesser value w/ a {check} template for now).
Then, the table @ Flake#Drug has some values that I find vary suspect - Yayo is listed +15 Movement, but on the same page it's -20! Or is the +15 an offset for the -20 Consciousness penalty to Move, and the "-20" was an observed cascade??? (that's what I'm going with - for now) Also under Yayo, both Consciousness and Manipulation are -20 - but since a -20 Consc equals a -20 to Manip, I similarly have to wonder if that's an accurate additional -20 (-40 manip?) or not (believing "not" for now, w {Check}).
Further, "Tiredness" (aka Rest Fall Rate) was confused with "Rest" in the Psychite tea intro (fixed), and I find it hard to believe that Go-juice has a fraction of the Tiredness reduction that Flake & Yayo give (80% vs. 33% Tired) AND no boost to "Rest" - but... maybe? Did Rest/Tiredness get confused (again), or one simply left out? Were those table values maybe intended as "negative" values, reducing Tired (and/or Rest!)? Who knows? NOT ME, that's the problem, and I don't know how to get in to the code to find out. Specifically:

• Duration of 1 dose of Go-juice (.7 days vs. 1.875 days?)
• Confirm both "Rest" and "Tired" factors for Flake, Go-juice, and Yayo
• Confirm "Movement" (+15 or -20?) for Yayo
• Confirm no additional -20% "Manipulation" for Yayo
• Evaluate accuracy/clarity of Flake#Drug table; evaluate deleting, or editing OR copy/pasting to related articles (I'm happy to edit once I know the correct values, whatever works)
• Only if you want, scan new effects table and pre-existing "addiction & tolerance table for for similar hiccups

Thanks for any help or thoughts. Albedo (talk) 00:13, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

Alright so:

• You seem to be mixing up the withdrawal symptoms with the high effects. Yayo gives you +15% when you're high on it, but if you're addicted, but haven't taken it for a while and are undergoing withdrawal, then you get a -20% penalty.
• You're right that Yayo and Flake seem to be missing their rest offsets (i.e. the amount they instantaneously fill the Rest need bar). They are +40% and +20% respectively.
• On a related note "Improves joy 80%" is similar but that sentence very poorly explains it. It fills the need by 80%, just like the rest offsets.
• "Tiredness" seems to be rest fall factor (i.e. with a factor of 33%, you take 3x as long to get as tired). I am unsure why its called tiredness. I can't remember off the top of my head what it is referred to as in the infoboxes. It is also possible it got renamed as some point.
• Table looks good to me, so long as it doesn't grow too much more. COuld use a little formating love including links to the relevant drugs and stats. It is ultimately replacable with text if you have reason to get rid of it, but its a fairly unobtrusive way to do the comparison if you'd like to keep it.
• Unsure as to the drug duration. Looking at the .xml it looks like a single dose gives you 50% seveirty, and you lose 75% severity per day, or a duration of 16hrs which would round to 0.7 days, but all three of those numbers would need to be tested in game to confirm.

Part of the issue is that the drug pages are a mess without any decent standard and they have info scattered all around. We really need to convert them to something clearer. Go-juice is a pretty good start, but it needs to match the same general format as the other pages (e.g. Acquisition listing not just crafting but how else to acquire, analysis pulled out of mechanics, etc). I have no idea why the stats are in descriptive language and in the intro paragraph for half the drugs - its confusing as you've discovered. Harakoni (Wiki Moderator) (talk) 13:28, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

I understand high vs. withdrawal, but certainly dropped the ball on that one - I missed the "Withdrawal" sub-heading, plead tiredness. Speaking of which, yeah, "Rest" and "Tiredness" and some other values... not intuitive whether positive/negative values are good/bad, nor what the diffs are nor ~exactly~ what they do, and some would be clearer if %'s were all listed as "+.X" so it's not potentially seen as a % multiplier when it simply adds .X decimal amount. I'll put some thought into a suggestion for standard page layout, what is/not clear and/or adaptable across all subjects - as you say, each seems to be its own thing atm. Still some Q's for some of those values. Will tweak table later today, thx.Albedo (talk) 16:46, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

No worries wrt the high vs withdrawal. It happens, glad its cleared up. As for the % multipliers, we can't turn them into +decimals because they ARE multipliers. They aren't offsets, they're factors and that affects how they stack. What we can do is add something like "Applies a x33% multiplier to a pawn's rest fall rate, meaning an otherwise healthy and unaffected pawn takes 3x longer to need to sleep" or something like that so that you get the actual effect so you know how it will stack, and then how it affects a baseline pawn quantitatively so its easy to deal with.

Wrt to the page layout, I'm keen to hear your thoughts. I'm thinking something like the following

• Intro paragraph (with general, but not detailed, effects and a description)
• Acquisition (with drug synthesis speed/drug cooking speed identified)
• Summary
  • Detailed effects (ala Go-juice)
  • Side Effects
  • Overdose values (maybe? Or maybe just put them in the above two )
  • Withdrawal
• Analysis
  • Trade
  • Use
• Version history etc.

A balance of keeping the pages roughly the same format as all others (something go-juice has an issue with) but also keeping all the necesssary information there and accessible (something go-juice does fairly well). Exactly how the information is presented under those headings is a problems though.

Side note, what is with this undo? My previous edit ADDED the bit about ailments, not removed it and did so for the reasons you say (food poisoning isn't a disease). Your undo didn't actually undo anything, only adding a single character somewhere. I am very confused. What did you intend to do? Harakoni (Wiki Moderator) (talk) 00:18, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

re ...we can't turn them into +decimals because they ARE multipliers - Some certainly are, but not all of them are, that's the problem. When a drug adds "40%" to Recreation, that's a flat .40 bump, doesn't matter what you start at - BUT both that "40%" and the Go-Juice Rest Fall Rate "+40%" effects reads as "%" - no way to distinguish between the 2 effects. (Some have a "+", but that doesn't make the intended mathematical operation any clearer, additive or multiplicative.) Then of course the issue re whether "+X%" is a good thing or no...

As for page payout, if I look up a drug, as a new player I would want to see the Effects standing out and near the top - "What does this do?" - that is what a drug "is", more than anything, its in-game effects. (And, actually, the current spectrum of formats is handy here for comparison - bring up the 8 drug pages, and see what hits you on each one, what works and what doesn't.) Flake is a good example imo - it gets right to it (tho' it then wanders off on tangents). The info box on Psychite tea is handy (tho' maybe a diff format). I think the chattiness of Wake-up should be avoided, at least as an Intro - that's Summary/Analysis material. One clear problem is when an editor (understandably) discusses "pros/cons" in one sentence - those cons naturally vary, and then send the discussion off in unpredictable directions. Since most all drugs will be a "pro/con" balance, let's try to avoid that, or (better) to standardize the topic points on a page layout - detailed talk of "balance" is Analysis, not Intro.

• Intro: tight and short; basic Use recommendations + what primary in-game purpose is this drug designed for/does it serve? Go-juice is for combat & emergency production, etc.

• Possibly a line or bullet point for significant/unique warnings (1st-dose addiction %, heart attack %, Luciferium's "forever", non-produce-able, etc.)

• Summary - Get to Effects asap, immediately after the Intro (or even as a continuation of it!). This is what defines a drug in most players' minds - the [Mood + Rec + no-risk] of Psychite Tea, or the [+100% Rest + risks] of Wake-up. Go-juice's bullet points works, altho' something about a table/box sim to the one on Psychite tea is attractive, stands out. (Could fill the cells or back-ground the bullet points w/ green/yellow/red for positive/negative/ dangerous effects, to clarify that issue - plus color is good.)
• Acquisition (I know Acquisition is usually near top in other articles, but those items are usually obvious re "What do they do?" - I think that Effects info should come first, then this once someone has the info to decide if they want to acquire it.)
• Analysis - this is where one can wax chatty about pros and cons and balances and considerations; TLDR doesn't hurt at the bottom.

Whatever we end up with, we proly want to make a page layout to copy/paste for each, easily done. Albedo (talk) 01:45, 12 April 2022 (UTC)