Topic on Talk:Colony Building Guide

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Edit Wars Between User:Gottoni and User:Yoshida Keiji

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Summary last edited by PigeonGuru 09:40, 20 January 2019 20 January

No agreement reached between parties, topic closed. Future complaints should be posted to User:Zesty's talk page. Further edit wars will result in bans.

Zesty (talkcontribs)

I've tried to reach out to you both to ask for context why there's edit wars going on for both the Ice Sheet Guide and this article, the Colony Building Guide.

However, no one has explained what's going on here. I've checked multiple pages of confusing discussions.

Please User:Gottoni and User:Yoshida Keiji, explain what the disagreement here is and how we can resolve it.

Yoshida Keiji (talkcontribs)

What you are witnessing here is a conflict with two fronts, the primary being “Procedural-Policies” and the secondary being “Conceptual-Content”. (Legend: Blue box is without me/Green box is with me)

Gottoni is weak on both fronts, and the lack of knowledge on both fields is causing havoc due to his reckless behavior. Going on a chronological sequence:

His very first contribution to this wiki is already incorrect:

This “Procedure (1)” is INCORRECT: because he “Orphaned” the first file unnecessarily, which he should have just uploaded a new version instead.


All the month of August, there’s no communications available due to Ludeon updating the talk pages, I inform you about the issue at hand and we have to wait for around two weeks to have the dialogue feature restored. During this period of time, I wanted to express concern about the Ship images lacking the Planning Grid which is very convenient for visual count of space when not specified in written. File:Ship.png

And of course during this communication black-out period he was already altering the content of these three guides: Colony Guide, Ice Sheet, Extreme Desert.

In this process, he broke “Edit Policy (2)” (which I assumed Good Faith mistakenly) of Major Changes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Editing_policy#Be_cautious_with_major_changes:_discuss

Mind you, I could have restored the originals at any time, but out of courtesy, I waited for communications to come back up in order to properly make fixes with notifications messages. But my intervention comes later ahead.

Let’s take a look at Colony Guide page “History”: https://rimworldwiki.com/index.php?title=Colony_Building_Guide&action=history

Participants are PigeonGuru, ZombieElvis and Gottoni. I’m not contributing there myself. At first glance from the RC, the page activity looks relatively “normal”, and the first minor disagreements start to pop-up from August 21st.

The first talk is generated at PigeonGuru talk page which was later on, entitled: “Image Consensus” https://rimworldwiki.com/wiki/User_talk:PigeonGuru#ImageConsensus.

Of course, the title was edited and this is the original start: https://rimworldwiki.com/index.php?title=Topic:Un04zgoditjgn7nx&topic_postId=un04zgojrba1zyj1&topic_revId=un04zgojrba1zyj1&action=single-view

By 22nd Revert Wars happen but there is still no talks between opposing parties. Note: These three should have started discussing in the talk page of the Colony Guide instead. From the “Content-Conceptual (3)” angle: disagreements range from placing for table and chairs, the killbox, temperature control, bedrooms, prison, cover section, hospital.


Pictures get removed without any dialogue:

…and get re-added later on…


Disagreements keep showing up:

Then I finally show up myself a full month afterwards on September 17th and not particularly versus Gottoni.

So… whatever the quarrels here, I’m not involved in the heat myself.

Which I could have, but through Discord, I told PigeonGuru I wasn’t interested much into overseeing guides at the moment, because the build Version 1.0 feels very broken to me, it has so many problems to the point that we should wait until the next game update instead.


It is on the same August 22nd that we also start to witness Gottoni with maintenance templates:


…and now, Gottoni jumps to the Extreme Desert Guide…

With another “Major changes” policy infraction (4).


On the next day 23rd, without any consultations to the rest of the Community, we start to see listings removals too:

Two days later, on the 25th, we see another “Edit Policy” breach (5), now on Ice Sheet Guide:

Policy infractions number 3 and 4, I’m not involved directly in any of both cases. The number (5) is the one I intervene. Now the Ice Sheet Guide is different than the other two, because it was not “Community-made” guide but it was “User-exclusive-made”, and by myself of course. There is an author, unlike the others which cannot be attributed to a single person.

Here you will notice a different approach as opposed to both PigeonGure and ZombieElvis, because unlike the others, I do engage into discussions both in the respective page and in Gottoni’s talk page. Which is the CORRECT way to solve disputes. Until now neither of the other two had formerly addressed their own conflicts versus Gottoni. “Conceptual-Content” (6).

Now by Wiki Standards, whenever a Discussion is generated, the common procedure is to completely “HALT” live-edits in the mainspace and “ONLY” edit the talk page until a “CONSENSUS” is properly formed. And while I attempt to resolve the dispute “Procedural-Policy (7)”,…

… something unexpected happens: PigeonGuru brings a “BOMB”.

PigeonGuru: “I'll give you the green light in terms of applying some of the changes, seeing that we are already in 1.0.”


The PigeonGuru Bomb, completely undermines my own effort by:

1.- Giving “Green Light” before any consensus was ever reached.

2.- Tells Gottoni it’s okay to “keep reverting”.


At which point it is clearly self-exposed to the public that PigeonGuru does NOT understand what Consensus means, is, how it is attained, how it works. (So technically speaking, we don’t have one problem, but two instead.) This is very critical, because in all these years and wikis I have been around, this was the first ever moment when I witness a “Moderator” who is not acquainted with “CONSENSUS”, which is the backbone-DNA of all Wikis, the very foundation stone on which we stand. How come another Moderator “overruns” my own directives towards Gottoni? Under what criteria gives Green Light? And of course, by telling; “Keep reverting”, we are sent back to the instance prior opening discussion and back to war. And Gottoni kept on going in a rampage.
The chance to debate the situation was “Blown off the table”

Some time passes by, two months, and now we get the Sea Ice Guide, to which I open another discussion:

But in the end, we can’t stop the madness. The bigger problem of all is the primary “Policy-Procedure” (8) constant infractions because every Gottoni edit is:

  • Made Impulsively and placed by “Force” instead of community-wide cooperation/consented.
  • Discussion are not being opened and “hard-edits” are done e.g.: page blanking / complete revamps / no considerations taken. Basically Gottoni is doing whatever he wants to do regardless of Policy/Rules, massive reverts everywhere and zero knowledge/understanding of common wiki-practices.


What we need New Users to do, is to make inquires when in doubt, example case: Topic:Usc0ctmxu8qibde5. Of course, this will feel unfair extra load to beginners, but every veteran here "will" have the natural tendency to perform faster due to our familiarity with policies, guidelines and Wiki-Fu. Gottoni needs to start from zero instead of trying to match the abilities of long time contributors.

15:42, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

PigeonGuru (talkcontribs)

I do admit I have less experience in wikis and hence do not necessarily understand everything about editing one, I'll apologise to that.

Zesty (talkcontribs)

Alright, I think that's well explained enough. I haven't heard from User:Gottoni yet, so if you want to add your perspective to the discussion then please go ahead.

No more edit warring over articles -- Moderators have the final say over stuff like this. If anyone has an issue with this, please feel free to talk to me one on one.

Additionally, if you want to make a guide a different way than a main article guide about the topic, then feel free to make another article. e.g. Username's Guide to X Biome is fine, and multiple guides about the same scenario are valid.

Zesty (talkcontribs)

And it goes without saying, further edit wars are going to result in temp bans. No more of that, please.

PigeonGuru (talkcontribs)

Some things:

1. The decision on content to the guide hasn't been made, I'll assume that until we hear from both sides we shouldn't make any hasty decisions.

2. I am currently thinking about making a wiki metaguide to specifically deal with potential edit wars over guide content. If we can decide on the proper method to avert potential edit wars, then I would begin to write it. Any opinions on this matter?

Yoshida Keiji (talkcontribs)

This is how we are going to proceed next:

We are going to enter a postwar period of restoration phase in which:

First, both Colony and Extreme Desert guides will be reverted to the version prior Gottoni. Second, all contributors will be re-adding whatever edit they performed between the "original" and "present" day versions so that nothing is lost, this applies to all members except Gottoni. During this period of time, all the restoration will "not" constitute edit warring. Third, Gottoni will still be able to contribute wherever he wants "BUT" will have to resort to the "Proper Channels":

  • By creating a "Draft" in his user page sandbox, or
  • By creating a "Draft" in the sandbox of a page, or
  • By opening discussion topics in the talk page of an article.

These are the three traditional methods to "Correctly" perform Major Changes, which he failed to do for so long. Fourth, the "Community" will evaluate whether or not include Gottoni's content as part of the main article page.

The page Ice Sea Guide has a duplicate in his user space and will remain there. The Duplicate currently sitting on "mainspace" will be deleted as it doesn't meet worthy standard, then the Community will evaluate the user space version and discuss whether it deserves main space placing or not. Everything will be properly discussed before reaching "official" status.

I will be executing the "Restoration Phase" in 12hs from now, which will be 48hs since Gottoni's last log-in which equals two full days period.

  • Gottoni was in the past given two full months to answer "why delete content" but he never showed up.
  • Gottoni was given three weeks from before NYE until yesterday and still didn't show up.
  • Gottoni is currently being called by the Head Administrator and on the present discussion but hasn't still showed up. Time is running out for him.

This time, with "Restoration Phase" we will be doing everything the "RIGHT-WAY" and how it should have been done but it wasn't. To give example to new members and to practice Policy based Proceedings properly.

Gottoni (talkcontribs)

Hello Zasty, I am sorry for taking so long to see your message. That Yoshida dude really demotivates anyone from writing anything here, so I have been avoiding looking into messages because it might be another flaming discussion made by him.

Guess what, thats exactly what I am looking at again. As you can see Yoshida dude is trying really hard to find a reason to punish me, apparently he is also trying to flame PigeonGuru.

Like he said, once in a while I updates pages here. I updated the Biomes page, then the Extreme Desert Guide page, then the Ice Sheet Guide page, then the Ship page, then the Colony Building Guide page. They were all in Alpha 16, the Colony Building was just reorganized and I added much more pictures. The Sea Ice Guide was entirely written by me.

The Colony Building guide caused some disagreement between me and PigeonGuru because I didnt want to flood the guide with unnecessary pictures, so I removed my pictures until we could come to an agreement. We did and now the Colony Building guide is updated and full of pictures. That is, until 6 January when Yoshida decided to remove everything because apparently my contributions are "Childish and stupid".

The Extreme Desert Guides and the Ice Sheet Guides were also undone by him. I tried to explain to him many times that his guides are outdated and instead of removing some else attempt to update the guide he should instead edit the parts about the guide that he doesnt like. Still, he insisted that his guide cannot be replaced and undone also PigeonGuru attempt to create a mix guide. Apparently, according to him, my guides are "unworthy" because using caravans is cheating.

Later, he tried to discredit my Sea Ice Guide in a discussion he called "Astounding absurdity", this time saying that I do too much trading so this makes my guide "unworthy" again. The discussion didnt evolved into anything productive because he instead just started threatening to punish me. So I closed the topic since it was clear that he didnt intend to make contributions.

It is obvious by now that Yoshida is not interested in updating his guides, neither he will allow another person to do it. I said I would create another version that doesnt use caravans since that bothers him so much, but I am not very motivated to do so since it removes so much of the fun of the game and in the end he might just find another excuse to undo my guide again.

As far as I know the only "edit war" so far was Yoshida removing my guides because it didnt please his personal opinions and later removing my contributions on The Colony Building guide because he doesnt like me. Making updates to pages that are years outdated is just regular wiki activity.

I still stand that we should keep my guides because they are updated and Yoshidas arent. Again, like I said from the very beginning, later he can make whatever changes he pleases if he doesnt like something specific about it, or he can ask me to change something. I already did changes before just to please mister Yoshida and removed traits recommendations for colonists.

You see, it is a problem with a very simple solution and it was so from the very beginning until Yoshida started causing more problems.

Again, he says my Sea Ice guide is "unworthy" because I do trading, even though other people like it. Yoshidas motivation to remove it is vengeance and he will not touch it.

Zesty (talkcontribs)

Pigeon and Yoshida are both moderators, they're not bullying each other.

You both want to contribute to the wiki, so just talk things out before making larger changes and work together on the talk pages if needed. If further issues come up, either message me or be civil about it.

Gottoni (talkcontribs)

"PigeonGuru Bomb, completely undermines my own effort", "it is clearly self-exposed to the public that PigeonGuru does NOT understand what Consensus means" I dont know how you call this, but this is just rude.

I dont think Yoshida listens to reason, neither do I understand how someone who edits out other people stuff calling it "stupid and childish" and creates discussions calling pages "Astounding absurdity" becomes be a moderator.

Most importantly PigeonGuru gave me green light because if we listen to Yoshida then our guides gonna stay in Alpha16 forever, but if you listen to me I can actually keep pages updated and he does whatever changes he wants.

It is not a hard choice

But if you rather have things in Alpha16 then dont do anything and everything stays the way it is.

Yoshida Keiji (talkcontribs)

"I have been avoiding looking into messages because it might be another flaming discussion made by him."

You are wrong. Communication is essential in any group, and discussions are the place where final decisions are made.

  • You wanted to report me. Then, when Zesty showed-up, you didn't use your chance to properly address "your" problems. Things don't get solved by mere wishes.


The facts are that:

  • You broke Policy by making "Major Changes" without proposing a Draft nor opening a discussion as to why a page needs a revamp... BEFORE removing large portions of contents. You broke the Law.
  • You broke Policy repeatedly by engaged into multiple Reverts Wikipedia:Edit Warring & Three revert rule
  • You proceeded to do as will regardless of domestic laws, carelessly.
  • When you broke the Laws in this Community, the "Police officer" came to tell you which infractions did you commit and why your behavior is unacceptable. And instead of listening to the Authority, you insulted instead, kept behaving uncivil and even tried to tell the officer about the laws like if he didn't knew what all is about: WARNING: User Yoshida Keiji disruptive editing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Disruptive_editing * Accounts used primarily for disruption may be blocked indefinitely.
  • So you were now sent to "Court", there, now you pretend to impose your own convenient Laws regardless of the existing ones and even want to decide your own sentence. You still want to do whatever you want, regardless of rules, careless about the others and even make others do as you want.

There is no way you are getting off with this.


When you make statements, you would do well to choose your wording and don't come up with terms such as "apparently" because it connotes that you are uncertain and don't have the proper proof to back up your case.

You went to "Update" the other guides without Proposing a Draft or opening a proper discussion. This means that you literally "run-over" the rest of the Community members without a care of everybody else's opinion. And while you were breaking the Rules, you never considered the others. The Laws apply to all, and you are NOT above it. The Law also protects YOU. But in your current state you are probably to blind to see it. Someday in the future, another person may come and want to do exactly as you are doing now. Then, what is going to protect "your guides" from being "blanked away" or even "deleted by will"... well it"s exactly the same LAW that we are talking about now. I will be the officer that will stand between the "new offender" and YOU. And if you still think none of this matters, nothing that you have done will remain after the "next guy" comes and says your articles suck.

You are NOT the law, therefore, it is NOT up to you to make Community-wide decisions on the run and implement them as convenient. I told you before: "-When in Rome, do as the Romans.-" You broke the Law repeatedly, and you are not going to run away with it.

Every Major Change intended for an article needs to be "DISCUSSED", so...

"I tried to explain to him many times that his guides are outdated and instead of removing some else attempt to update the guide he should instead edit the parts about the guide that he doesnt like."

...this means that:

  1. First, you must open a Discussion,
  2. Second, await for responses and continue the Dialogue until a final conclusion is met,
  3. Third, then make the changes.

But you never did this. This is why you are an Outlaw. You never introduced a "Draft" to the Community. Which is why we can charge you for breaking "Policy-Procedures". The Draft, is what needs to be evaluated under "Conceptual-Content" by the entire Community and only then if approved, sees the light. But instead, you "Forced it upon the Community". There is NO-WAY that you can claim any Wikipedia:Assume good faith. You lost your "nimbus".

And yes, before I forget, you ARE childish, the whole world can see how you attempt to close discussions that don't favor you by marking topics as resolved although they are still active, and you only re-open them when convenient for you to add another reply, then try to remove others chances to give their own opinions. To later on, even attempt to make a summary... that it doesn't even summarize the content of the topic, but instead write something else. You are, officially, childish. Because we can all see, that removing the table is just your pathetic attempt to hit on me.

You have been twisting my words, making false accusations like for example: that I deleted content and when I expose the Special:Log/delete page you don't detract your words.


We are going to enter "Restoration Phase" now, and the slightest misdeed you do next will get you a ban. We have been dealing with your shit for half a year now and no more.

07:39, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

Zesty (talkcontribs)

Topic closed. No more edit wars or arguments, please.

Gottoni, if you have a future complaint then put it on my talk page. Mods, carry on as usual. This discussion has been going in circles for a while.